Claire Dowdall (00:00)
poor communication is a crisis in companies today, an actual crisis, not just a bit of a skills gap, but an actual crisis.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:17)
Hello and welcome along to the Prepared Seller podcast. Today I'm joined by Claire Dowdall, is a speaker, strategist, brand director, who helps experts and leaders and sales professionals turn their message into momentum. She's the creator of the Come With Me method, the story led strategy for visibility and influence that helps people be seen, trusted and easy to refer.
Not only that, Claire is the director of brand that exactly what to say the global movement created by bestselling author Phil Jones, based on this book here. She spent nearly a decade building the brand into a worldwide platform and it's now represented by more than 50 certified guys across the US, UK and Canada. we're also going to get stuck into the conversational edge, which is a research study that was conducted earlier this year.
which Claire was involved with, and it speaks about how communication helps people in the workplace.
Claire is a member of the PSA. She's a member of the National Speaker Association in the US, and releases the brand directive every two weeks. So you can find out what it takes to build a real brand in real time. Claire, welcome to the show.
Claire Dowdall (01:28)
Good, thanks. I enjoyed that introduction. It felt great. So thank you.
Paul M. Caffrey (01:32)
Yeah.
And there's a lot of stuff that I had to leave out. I didn't get to mention the power lifting and so much more, but I'm sure we'll get into it as we get through things. So how's the last few weeks been? know you're just back from New York.
Claire Dowdall (01:43)
I am, yeah, we had a really good few days in Manhattan. We had a three day certification that took place, which I was able to attend the third day and really get sort of involved and get to know people and see how it feels to be in the room. And then we spent a really good few days as a leadership team, just building the future plans, which is always really good time well spent in person as well.
Paul M. Caffrey (02:09)
Yeah, it's great to get together and look at those future plans. And one of the things that stands out, and this is something that you write about, is everything feels important. A lot of people, don't really know where to start. When you're thinking about brand and improving brands, how do you prioritize activities? What sort of frameworks do you look at things through?
Claire Dowdall (02:30)
When I'm thinking about looking at a brand strategy, looking at how we improve things, it's always down to one thing and that is putting yourself in the position of the person having the experience. So whether that's an experience of your product, whether that's experience of an event, or even in the way that you communicate, the more that you can put yourself in the shoes of the person that you're trying to help, obviously you will always be able to improve things and see things in an important way rather from
ego where this is what we want and this is what we want to build and this is what we want people to say. It's what are people actually feeling? What are they actually saying? And what conversations are happening? Obviously as a company we're very focused on conversations. And so the more that we can facilitate conversations that enable us to really get insights into what people are thinking, feeling, experiencing, then we're able to
get much better. And one of the frameworks that I would say I would link with that is I have a bit of a pet hate of testimonials. Testimonials in themselves and recommendations and social proof and all of that are fantastic. But what I prefer to do is to reframe them because quite often testimonials are a look at me approach. Like look at how brilliant I am. Look at this person saying
Claire is fantastic, I work with her, she was awesome, she knows all these things and I had a great time. That focuses it on you. But when you switch the language, something changes. And what I've done is I've started to switch the language from testimonials into impact stories. Because to measure brand, you want to measure impact. The real impact, the real measure of impact is in the stories that people have experienced.
the stories they tell and the stories that get retold as well. So when you collect impact stories, that's more human proof of the impact that you're making on people, the improvement that you're making and how you are solving the key problem that you promised to solve. And when you put that all together, you're keeping that brand promise. And I think that's a much more powerful way of doing it. And you learn so much more as well.
Paul M. Caffrey (04:39)
Yeah.
And I was reading a bit about some, one of your articles about this from from your newsletter, the brand directive. And in it, you mentioned this phrase of of capturing those in the room moments or capturing those moments when let's say when the impact is being had and the outcome is being realized. So if we think about putting this into practice,
Is this change in how we ask questions and testimonials? Is this capturing that information in a different way at a different time? So if someone hears this and go, fantastic, I really like the sentiment. How would they put it into practice in the very simple terms?
Claire Dowdall (05:18)
The best time to capture this type of information is obviously when it's fresh in a person's mind and they're still experiencing the emotions of the experience that they've had. So if say you're running an in-person event, the ideal time to capture a story from somebody is when they're still there. So during the break towards the end or even after it's over while they're still kind of there.
their head is full, they're still in that kind of zone and they're probably very excited and more grateful for what has been happening. That is an example of an event. Obviously it's more difficult when the experience they have with you is a physical product. But even if it's a physical product, it's still when they've received the product, they're probably excited to receive it. They've had that initial benefit from it and you can probably capture them at that
point rather than six months later when, it's a while since I used it, I can't really remember. To try and access the emotions and the story after that period of time is much harder. So I always think it's those in the moment times. And even better is when you haven't had to ask them to do it and say you are literally in the room with them and
you're presenting and you have somebody in the audience says something in that moment or they're overheard in a side conversation. If you can find a way to capture that, that's even more powerful because you didn't even have to ask for it. So you know how genuine it is. And one method of doing that that I found really interesting and I'm sure it was Dan Martel that said it is that if you were
on stage delivering a keynote, for example, that you would have somebody in the audience that captures those little snippets and wow moments and stories that you tell, but also anything else that happened in the room. rather than being on stage in front of an audience, if you were in a room and you were delivering a workshop, for example, and someone said something or there was an exchange between you and somebody else and it was really powerful that that was somehow captured.
And then what you can do is that that person could then be interviewed about that moment. And then it just makes it much more deep, much more meaningful. So in summary, certainly as soon after the positive experience as possible is the best time to capture it. You can have maybe a set of standard questions. And I would always recommend that follow some kind of, you may have heard of a story arc.
where it might be, where they were before they knew about you, what problem or pain they were experiencing at the time that they wanted to solve, why they chose to work with you, what the experience was of working with you, and then what the result was at the end. So that is kind of your testimonial story arc, I guess. So having a set of standard questions is good, but you want to make it as natural as possible. And I actually really love the idea of it being a
recorded conversation. If you're able to find someone who's willing to jump on Zoom with you and have a full conversation about it, then you don't necessarily have to follow a set of questions, you can actually have a conversation and that's when so much more can come out you can dive deeper into certain areas and somebody might feel more more comfortable to share and you just get that real depth. So I really like that as an option if people are open to it.
Paul M. Caffrey (08:49)
Yeah. And with that, having the set questions makes it makes a lot of sense. And interestingly, we unpack the speaker on stage, one thing I've noticed is that when people take a picture or they take a note and they post it on social media, it's not always of what you think they're going to be highlighting or thinking is most valuable. Quite often, it's something which is a little bit different, a little bit unexpected. So taking the time to engage with people who've
went to the effort of posting something on their social media, trying to feed. And yeah, I guess taking that a step further and maybe, you know, asking for that zoom chat. I'm sure a lot of people are very happy to apply it and we'll happy to jump on. And I guess one thing where I see sales people and sales professionals let themselves down is they might work with a client for three months, six months, 12 months.
before the deal is signed and then the deal is signed and they don't ask for a recommendation. They don't even think about testimonials, none of that. as you say, when someone has reached a degree of certainty to be able to have a story arc of quite simply, what was the problem that you were having before we started chatting? What solution have you? ⁓
arrived at what have I been like to work with? What's my organization being like to work with? Who do you think that we could help into the future? Something simple like that means that you can you can grab a lot of real great proof of the great work that you're doing without going, ⁓ they signed and yes, they're getting value from the product, but it's six months ago and now it just feels weird to reach out and as opposed to maintain relationships, which we all should be doing, but even.
Just doing that little piece of getting that recommendation definitely will help you even hold yourself to account to maintain that relationship. And this is something which actually Phil Jones, obviously, we don't know quite well, mentioned when he gets praise for his book, exactly what to say, he will ask someone to maybe post a review of what they thought so others can find it. And probably no surprise, he's got about four and a half thousand reviews.
Something, some huge number anyway, it's Also the 10,000, wow.
Claire Dowdall (10:59)
I think it's closer to 10,000, but yeah, that is being
proactive about that. It is that if you don't ask, you don't get. And if you're regularly getting praise for something, but there's no way of capturing it, then it's just like, thank you. That's all you can do. But just taking that a little step further, it's not a difficult thing for people to do, is it?
Paul M. Caffrey (11:05)
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. No, absolutely not. And one thing which people really struggle with, and we've all been there, I've struggled with this as well, is that, that look at me, it feels like if I've got to say how great I am, if I'm going to share an impact story, whatever it may be, sometimes people don't like to put themselves in the spotlight, but I like your approach to this.
I suppose it's not so much look at me, it's come with me. And it'd be really interesting to maybe dig into that a little bit because I think there's a lot of value there for people to take away.
Claire Dowdall (11:51)
Yeah, and that again has come from Phil, there's a lot of nuggets of wisdom, but I've really taken it forward into how I look at content in particular. And that is, rather than posting things that saying, look how brilliant I am, and an example would be, hey, I just got this great testimonial from a customer, that's very much a look at me. But if it's, let me tell you about
a situation that happened recently. Here's a video or an excerpt from an interview I had with somebody who I've worked with recently. And then it becomes their story rather than yours. It's like, let me share this story of this person. And yes, you are obviously linked in that story, but you're taking them with you. So that's the come with me part as opposed to look at me. When it comes to posting on social media, for example,
It's very easy to say, hey, look, I'm very smart. Here's me sharing a tip. And of course, you know, tips have their value. But what are humans most fascinated with? Other humans. Why do people go on to social media? Because they kind of want to see what other people are doing. They don't come onto social media to be educated necessarily. So you might go onto YouTube to purpose the...
look for videos that are telling you how to grow your YouTube channel, for example. That's intentional consumption. But when you're just on, Instagram and you're scrolling, you're not looking for someone to be that talking head looking at you unless there's a human part of it or a story involved. But the most powerful content that I'm seeing lately comes from people who are
taking you on a journey with them. And I have a couple of examples of that. The first one is I love to actually watch Diary of a CEO. I watch it on YouTube, I don't listen. So I used to listen to podcasts, now I watch them as if they're TV shows. And also we all know about Diary of a CEO, it's Stephen Bartlett and he's always interviewing or having a conversation with somebody. But the channel I actually like more is Behind the Diary.
And that is when Stephen Bartlett, he will share some really like useful information and insights, but he will be traveling and he will be going to a meeting and then he'll talk about what's happening in that meeting. And then he'll have some dinner and then he'll be talking about how tired he is and what his schedule looks like and that he's got an early flight. And this is the event I'm at now. And you get to follow along with him.
and you get a deeper insight into who he is and what he does on a day-to-day basis. And the nature of humans is we kind of are fascinated by the humans and we're interested in, you know, knowing how things work and how people tick and how we could relate to them. So we're probably more compelled by that type of content unless we go looking for education. Another example is actually Grace Andrews, used to work for Diary CEO.
She was the brand director and she's actually recently left there. She was always building a brand of her own on the side. was doing lots of speaking, but now she's on her own. She's a, calls herself a, what does she call herself? A content entrepreneur or content. She's a content creator essentially. And she has started by creating a weekly vlog on a YouTube channel. And it's always on a Friday and
I actually always look out for that episode because I want to see what she's been doing this week. Because I can, I have a way I can relate to her. in a similar role that she used to be in. Seeing her traveling, she's speaking, she's doing things that I like doing. And I want to see what she's doing next. And I would rather watch a 45 minute video of her week than a 45 minute video of her talking deeply on a topic unless I went looking for it. And that is...
That is how I see it. And I've been applying that to how I've been doing things. we all, most of us, if you're on Instagram, you'll share the occasional story. And you know that a story is a snapshot. It's a moment in your day or, or it's just something that you've found funny and you've shared it to your stories or whatever it is, but it's a small snapshot of your day. And that is to me, almost the easiest form of come with me content because it's a moment.
It's a snapshot. It's usually, this is what I'm doing right now. And it gives people an insight into you because there's usually quite a lot of variety in it. And so people will start to look out for it. So that's how, that's how I view it. It's, it's for me, it's such a big topic and it's such a, an overarching almost philosophy behind how I view things and how I'm starting to look at what I see online and how people are showing up and how people are building.
personal brands. So if someone is a sales professional and they're trying to build a personal brand, you don't do that by sharing sales tips. Like on their own. You don't do that by if you're selling a product or service, just talking about your product and service all the time and saying, Hey, come buy this thing. And like everyone knows that, but wouldn't it be good to take somebody with you as you're going on?
client visits or you're showing how you're having meetings today and like a day in the life and a little bit more insight into the process that you go through when you work with people and then here's a story about a client, I'm just with a client and we've been working together and they were really happy to share a few things about what's been going on and then you have a conversation and that's recorded. None of that is
look how brilliant I am. It's, I'm doing this thing, this is what I do, and you get to come along as well. And you get to feel part of the journey and involved. And that's way more powerful than telling.
Paul M. Caffrey (17:41)
Yeah. And a lot of things that you mentioned there really resonate. The days of just giving tips on social media and amassing a huge following are long gone. Right. That's that's not not going to cut it anymore. I'm sure there's people horrified listening to this going, I've got to do a vlog. I've got to share everything I couldn't possibly do that my company wouldn't let me or I just don't feel comfortable. But what I have seen people do is
They have seen people let people behind the curtain for certain aspects of things that they're doing. So it could be along the lines of I'm building a new ⁓ email list. I'm to post all the numbers here every week and see how growth goes and see how the content lands. I know the startup team of shuttle do that, for example. Others will. Well, they're sure that there's a lot of founders who will share all their numbers out there and how things are going. And.
The interesting thing is when you're spotlight and something that you're building or spotlight and something that you're doing, you will naturally make other people or other things the hero as such. And we had Neil Ford on the podcast last week and he's a storytelling expert. And one thing he calls out, I think it's so, so key is you can put yourself in a story, but don't make yourself the hero of the story.
And in fact, it works better if there's a little bit of self-deprecating humor that you pop in. And whereas you make yourself the hero, people will immediately kind of turn against that sort of content. that's a really, really something to keep in mind. It's kind of like if you're ever given a best man's speech that people are there to hear about the groom. They don't want to hear about the best man. So best man should not be in that speech. So, yeah.
Claire Dowdall (19:10)
Mm-hmm.
That is so true. There's another
way to think about it as well. And that is not just that you don't put yourself in the story, but you tell the story in a way that people can see themselves in it. Like there's a relatability to it. And then the ultimate is that you give them a vision of what their future story could look like. So I'm not just talking about these are current stories or past stories, but
Paul M. Caffrey (19:33)
Mmm.
Claire Dowdall (19:49)
by sharing stories of people's experiences that aren't you.
If those people are like the people you would like to work with, so let's say that your customer is an accountant and someone reads a story about how an accountant went through this transformation in some way of working with you or of experiencing your product and they're like, I'm an accountant as well. I can relate to the problem that they had and I can see how that process.
worked and I would like to get that result too, they start to imagine themselves as being in that story but in the future. What if that was my story? And that's when they start to connect not just to can you help me but can I see that being a reality for me in the future and they're already imagining the results so it becomes much more compelling when you do that.
Paul M. Caffrey (20:42)
What's beautiful about that is they're imagining the impact it would have for them. So it loops back around to your impact stories, particularly if you're following that, that line of, of content as well.
Claire Dowdall (20:53)
Yeah, I want that to be my story. So I guess I've got to work with this person.
Paul M. Caffrey (20:58)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And when you speak about working with people, obviously you mentioned that yourself and the exactly what to say team got together in New York to plan 2026. How big is too big? I noticed that you wrote an article on this, and I guess I'm curious how you how you deal with that, because you've got so many opportunities and so much that you could do.
How do you say yes or how do you say no to certain opportunities, particularly looking a year ahead?
Claire Dowdall (21:27)
That is so difficult, especially when you're an ideas person. the thing is, and I in particular, we're both ideas people. We could think of ideas all day long and come up with a million different projects we could do or ways that we could use this work because it's so universally applicable that the opportunities are kind of everywhere. And I actually, don't know whether you've read this book too. There's a book by Dr. Benjamin Hardy called
10x is easier than 2x. And it advocates for having like the biggest goals possible. So let's imagine that your turnover right now is a quarter of a million. And to 2x that, to get to half a million, well, that would be nice, but what does that involve? Probably just involves doing more of what you're doing right now, which probably involves more of your time, which is probably harder work for.
2x results but what if you started thinking about 10xing it so from a quarter of a million to two and a half well that's quite a jump and that's going to require you to operate in a very different way to how you operated before so you have to in that in that case you have to put aside everything that you're doing right now and it gives you that freedom to just okay we can kind of forget everything we're doing now because that's not going to get us to 10x
what would we have to do to get there and your creativity just skyrockets. But what happens when you start thinking about that? Okay, so let's say we are going to get to two and a half million in the next two or three years, then you start to filter everything. So everything you're doing right now, you put it through the filter of, this going to get us there or is this actually...
too small, is it going to hold us back? Is it unfocused? Is it a nice to have? Is it distraction? And you can cut down like a good chunk of what you're doing right now and then really focus on maybe only 20 % of what you're doing at the moment. And that could be, for instance, you've got five products.
But what happens if you focused on just that one, that one that is really profitable, that one that has the most potential, that one that you can deliver to the highest level, that one that you just know from the data is the one to focus on. And you could probably almost eliminate all the others. So having big goals is not necessarily about doing everything and doing more and is it too big and have we taken on too much?
It actually has that opposite effect. And that's why I love this book. I've just read another one called the science of scaling, same author, very similar premise of you have to be brave enough to take that one thing and remove anything that's a distraction and take that forward. So that's how we're sort of approaching it is if we were to focus on one product, one revenue stream, what would that look like? And
if we start to think at this 10x level and this isn't 10x in 10 years, this is like 10x in three years. Because what happens when it becomes 10 years and this is, know, Benjamin Hardy, watched a lot of his stuff and it's all now ingrained in me. You, if you give yourself 10 years, you'll take 10 years and you'll kind of give yourself grace for the next two or three years from doing anything at all. So this, what is too big, it's not about
how big it is, it's about how you approach it. And this allowing yourself to eliminate distractions and anything that doesn't lead to that is that's the way to be. And that's something that we've had to do. I had so much on my wish list of projects, even between now and the end of this year, there were like eight major projects. And I thought, hang on, we nearly in October, what can actually be achieved in one quarter? And what's the do?
ditch and delegate of those things. And so, you know, I've had to run through my own filter of what actually really matters at this moment. And it is, you know, what really moves the needle, drives the revenue is going to get us to where we want to go.
Paul M. Caffrey (25:20)
Yeah. And this this approach, I imagine there might be some salespeople and some sales leaders listening thinking, yeah, but I don't run the business. I can't change our strategy. something I point to is if you've got your sales team aimed at 100 percent of target and they're focusing on cold call and they're focused on cold outreach, all the basic fundamentals that they should be doing.
You're probably going to land between 70 to 100 percent. But if you do turn around and challenge yourself, how will I hit 200 or 250? Very quickly, you'll realize you'll have to do things a little bit differently. You have to speak with CEOs. You'll have to be at that executive level more often, even in smaller organizations. It's only 100 people working there. You probably still need to get that founder involved. That sort of prospecting is a little bit different. That then leads into, well, instead of just calling these customers, we could do ⁓ an exclusive dinner and
private dining, 12 people around, use the fact that the other CXOs are going to be there as a bit of a pull. Then all of a sudden you're in a way of building up a pipeline necessary for you potentially to hit that 10 X number in sales, hitting two or three X in a year, which is, I suppose, broadly aligned. And that's where we want to be thinking. And that doesn't mean that you stop doing the fundamentals, but it does mean that
You do think a bit bigger and what would I need to do? I need to speak with that CEO. Well, how could I get speaking with CEOs? OK, if I ran a dinner, if I ran an event, I can get there. So this very much is something that individuals can take control of. And if you're in your organization and you come with this initiative, you will probably get some backing because at the end of the day, yeah, there might be a couple of thousands to invest in running a dinner like that. But if you're able to drive the pipeline and show a bit of a return off it.
you are probably going to have people go, yeah, that looks logical. Let's give it a go. Or you just work in your own echo chamber and just cold call and work through your book of business and see where you get. So I think people should take that on and actually think of what you said there, Claire, and how would I apply that? And particularly within the turn of the year coming, you can start thinking about the following year for sure.
Claire Dowdall (27:23)
That's it. It's a good
time of year to do it. And the other part of that is if you are in sales and I'll try to think of an example of this. Let's say that you are in financial services and you're selling to a broad range of customers from the really volume commodity, low value style customers up to your exclusive high value, high retention like
long lifetime value customers. As long as you've got the data that says it is worth me spending my time curating this group of people for this dinner and the reason I know that they're valuable is they are very high net worth individuals, they want to do a lot of investments, they have large companies, they want to big retirement plans, all of those sorts of things then
As long as you've got the data that backs up that that's worthwhile, then you're to be able to put your effort into that and have some buy-in on that. And sometimes it is a case of, and this is stories that I've heard before where what people have done is rather than just doing more and finding more and more customers and throwing more and more modal spaghetti or whatever at the wall, what they're doing is that they're almost, they're kind of bravely stepping away from a large chunk of who they currently
communicate with or a large chunk of their database. And they're putting a huge amount of effort on a very small group that has the most potential or is maybe the highest value. And seeing that, you know, if they're working in that sort of environment, the way that people have approached this 10x versus 2x conundrum is that they have bravely chosen
the very top end of their client base and they're putting more in those. And then they're passing the other part of the database to a team or they're growing a team that can support that end of the market. So that's another approach. what that does, obviously it enables you to stay in your zone of genius, the market that you want to work in, the people that you want to work in. And you'll probably be able to exponentially grow that better because you're
You're using your skills, you're excited, you're passionate, you're driven, and you can design a system that works for that. So I really like this approach. I think it's a great lens to run a lot of things through, particularly in sales. You can't do everything. You cannot make more than a certain number of phone calls in a day, for example. And you can't email your database.
ten times the amount that you're emailing them now because they won't like it very much. But what happens if you focus on that small group that you know have the most potential?
Paul M. Caffrey (30:02)
I do want to take us in a different direction. I'm mindful of a little bit short on time and the study with, with yourself and the team, issued to conversational edge, which is here, we'll have a link where people will be able to get access to it really goes to highlight how communication.
and lack of communication skills is costing businesses an absolute fortune. What stood out for you most when you were going through that or looking at the findings that report that you conducted?
Claire Dowdall (30:31)
Well, let's just say that four in five of people that were part of the study said that communication or poor communication is a crisis in companies today, an actual crisis, not just a bit of a skills gap, but an actual crisis.
And that says something that there is a problem that needs to be solved and that perhaps people don't necessarily see, you know, the size of the problem. And what we discovered and something that
we kind of happily discovered because it reaffirmed what we do, is that the best conversations and the best outcomes come when a conversation happens in person. Which reinforces the fact that human to human communication, actual conversation, face to face is a skill that is still massively valuable. And if you have that skill, then you have a natural advantage over all of the people who are just trying to
shortcut through automation, send a quick text message when it really should have been a phone call or a face-to-face meeting. And also that so many miscommunications happen when they go through digital channels, even on something like Zoom, because it's just not quite the same. People are not 100 % themselves. And so there were so many things that it revealed. mean, one of the...
One of the really interesting ones that stood out to me was that was the gender divide in that across every single type of conversation that we surveyed on, on every single one, women were less confident than men.
So there's still that gender gap between confidence in just saying what you need to say, show up to a conversation, feel confident for it. But across the board, it just highlighted that so many people are unprepared to have really good conversations. And that for me was key.
Paul M. Caffrey (32:04)
Yeah.
And another thing that jumped out at me from this report is if you think about executives, you know, they would consider themselves great communicators and you would say if you're going to be an executive, you need to be a great communicator.
However, there seems to be a perception by the workforce that they are some of the worst communicators. Now, whether they're not putting the effort in when they're communicating with their wider teams, if they're maybe not preparing, if it's something else. But again, another thing which kind of jumps out at you when so many people involved in this study, there's definitely something there that we need to work on and improve.
Claire Dowdall (32:52)
Yeah, absolutely. It's over 50 % of people have actually been offended at the lack of preparation that a leader has done ahead of an important communication with a team. So you imagine that there has been something go on in a company and a leader needs to address the team and share what's going on and bring everybody on board or there's a new strategy or a new direction for the company or whatever that might be. And they've come to that meeting and they haven't.
head and it shows that they don't they don't care or the perception is that they don't care. The same with if you were to attend a sort of a catch-up with your manager on your performance like a performance review and they came they had no questions they'd not taken the opportunity to review the work you'd been doing they showed no awareness of you as a
Paul M. Caffrey (33:34)
Yeah.
Claire Dowdall (33:44)
person, they'd done no research, they just showed up to the meeting, probably forgot that they had it and hadn't done anything to kind of really show that they cared about the outcome of it. That's a problem too. So as you say, it seems like the gap is the perception or the attitude of the workforce towards how executives are showing up. And it shows that you may be in a role for
Paul M. Caffrey (33:57)
Yeah.
Claire Dowdall (34:10)
a reason, you you've worked your way up, you've achieved that goal of being in the role, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're effective in it and that you can be complacent and assume that, well, you must be a great communicator because you're in that role. It's really not always the case.
Paul M. Caffrey (34:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, or or worse that you just move that one a morning and eventually cancel it repeatedly. And an analogy I heard recently, which I thought was pretty apt. It's it's kind of like a father going to a baseball game. You know, the you know, the kid really wants the father to go. But then at the same time, when the father then eventually shows up to kids like, oh, no, now I have to have to play well and make sure that I, you know, I make my father proud.
as opposed to if the if he's not there at all, ⁓ doesn't care or whatever. that's what the key thing from that is neither person probably really wants to one on one. But both know that, it's important and we should be doing it because it's probably the only time in the week where you get to take a moment to step back and, you know, work on yourself, work on what's happening as opposed to just being in the thick of it and just doing what you need to do and deliver all the way through.
What is your number one prospect and tip, Claire?
Claire Dowdall (35:24)
My number one prospecting tip is to prepare to prospect. So, so many people might, they might have a, say they have a customer list and they're gonna call that customer list or they've got a list of appointments and they go through those appointments in their day. But what they don't do is they don't plan the conversation itself. So I advocate when you're prospecting is to actually plan your conversations out. So one of the, and obviously you will advocate for that too. And the way that,
Paul M. Caffrey (35:44)
Yeah.
Claire Dowdall (35:50)
that we do this with exactly what to say is we have a to-do list with four questions on it. And those four questions are who are the people you need to be asking more questions of? What conversations do you need to revisit to continue to progress? Where do you have relations, relationships that contain untapped opportunities and what opportunities are awaiting your input to agree on the next action?
And if you're going to have any to-do list to do with the conversations you're having in your day, it would involve answering those questions. And that means that not only have you got a, maybe a list of people that you're having conversations with, but you're actually being really intentional about what you want the outcomes of those conversations to be and thinking about where those conversations are at right at this moment. And are you missing anything?
Paul M. Caffrey (36:37)
It's so, so key, right? Those conversations, those meetings are happening for a reason. So I really like that. When it comes to sales, Claire, what's your number one sales tip?
Claire Dowdall (36:46)
My number one sales tip is to have the courage to stay in curiosity for as long as possible. So we say one of the four cornerstones for exactly what to say for effective conversations is that the person asking the questions controls the conversation. Whilst you're asking questions, you are the person in control and it makes it much easier to ask for the sale because not only have you stayed curious and you've learned more,
and you've allowed the other person to reveal more, but it builds that trust that allows you to actually get to the sale.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:18)
really, really like that. So I guess as Phil would say, you earned a right to ask that you've done that work upfront. When it comes to going for promotion, what tip would you give someone who's on the promotion hunt?
Claire Dowdall (37:32)
To get a promotion, well in our research, funnily enough, we discovered that most people who gain a promotion don't do so just through talent, but they do so through having communication skills. It's the number one way that people actually achieve promotions because you need to know how to be able to present yourself, have the conversations that matter, say the right words, have the confidence.
to have difficult conversations. And quite often it's the people who can talk themselves into a promotion that no matter what's on your CV, no matter what your experience is, it's that that really matters in the end and gives you the edge.
Paul M. Caffrey (38:12)
Yeah, that's such sage advice. And I've seen people get promoted, achieve 20 % of a sales number. I've seen those do more than 100 % not get promoted. And what was the key factor? Well, the person who was on 20 % was able to communicate that they had a fantastic plan, that they executed it brilliantly. But unfortunately, the market they were selling in collapsed. whereas the person who was successful
wasn't able to show that it wasn't just luck that someone needed something and they were there. They weren't able to show a plan. So communication will. Yeah, I really want to hammer that point home. That is way more important than than people realize, because if no one knows what your good work, the good work that you're doing, they're not going to look to bring it onto their team or to bring it into their organization.
Claire Dowdall (38:56)
Absolutely.
Communicating your value and having the ability to communicate your value. And, you know, yes, you will be able to have that proof of sales results that you can show, but the way that you articulate that, the way that you present it, the way that you even can tell stories that show people how competent you are and the types of results you're achieving, that's going to help you to stand out. And that's why I advocate for people thinking about how
their professional brand. So what is their reputation? How are they communicating their skills and showing their expertise and even having the courage to share thought leadership, even if you work for a company. As a company, have the courage to allow your staff to step out and show how brilliant they are. And as an employee, have the courage to stand out so that you can create more opportunities for yourself.
Paul M. Caffrey (39:49)
Yeah, it's it's so, so pertinent, particularly at the moment. You've mentioned a few books already, but I'm going to ask you for one more. What book do you recommend people should check out?
Claire Dowdall (39:59)
Okay, I have mentioned a few books, so I have to think of another one now. Another one that I am rereading actually is Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martel. So obviously time is a finite resource and if you are going to grow, you cannot do everything yourself and you have to have the courage to say, yep, I can't do all of this myself. I need to start to get some help and so that I can focus on the higher value tasks. So if you know what your...
If you're paid by the hour, great, you know what you'll pay by the hour. But if you're not, it's, you know, work out what your hourly rate is. And if you can outsource any tasks that are like, Dan Martell calls them $10 tasks, start outsourcing the tasks that pay less than what your hourly rate is. And then you'll start to be able to have a lot more impact.
Paul M. Caffrey (40:44)
When it comes to preparation, what does doing the work before the work look like for you, Claire?
Claire Dowdall (40:48)
Ooh, see, I've always found it quite difficult to be consistent with say planning my day or planning my week. But one of the things that I do and not every, it won't suit everybody. I like to do my weekly planning on a Sunday because it's quiet. I've already had a rest. I've had some downtime. My mind is more creative and I can start thinking ahead. So I take myself off to Starbucks with my laptop and...
fully caffeinated, I will plan my week while I'm there. So I'm out of my normal home office environment. But for me, I have to give myself that ability to be flexible, think about the energy that I have in the day, when I'm most creative, when I'm most productive. And also for me, it's when I'm at the gym, when, when can I make sure that that happens or the non-negotiables I get planned in, and then I work around them.
Paul M. Caffrey (41:40)
Yeah. And like your your gym work is paying off. You can see those records being broken on Instagram, left, and center. Yeah, that's cool. So if somebody wants to to bring you in to speak to on, you know, on how to build a massive brand like you've done or anything else, or they want to even just follow some of the come with me content, which you're sharing on LinkedIn and on your newsletter, how can they do that, Claire?
Claire Dowdall (41:47)
I've got my medals there.
Well, come find me on LinkedIn for a start. Just search up my name and you'll see the orange heart on my bio. It's all orange, all on brand. So come find me on LinkedIn, send me a connection request, let's start a conversation in the DMs. And hopefully you'll see my content pop up and you'll find some of it also on Instagram. So again, it's just Claire Dowdall on Instagram. Come see me over there. I love having conversations. Tell me what...
stands out to you and I'm always looking to see what other types of content people are sharing for ideas and interactions and as you mentioned before I do have my bi-weekly newsletter called the brand directive where I kind of pull back the curtain on what I'm doing right now, what I'm exploring, what I'm experiencing, what that's teaching me so that I can share that with other people and they can come with me.
Paul M. Caffrey (42:56)
There you go. Claredoadl, pleasure having you on. Thanks for being here.
Claire Dowdall (42:59)
Been a pleasure.
