Paul M. Caffrey (00:01.294)
I'm delighted to be joined by Richard Harris, the author of The Seller's Journey and The Sales Trainer. Richard, how you doing?
Richard Harris (00:10.105)
I'm good, man. It's good to catch up with you again, Paul.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:12.79)
Yeah, it's really, it's great to talk again. And I'm excited because the shoe was on the other foot this time. I get to delve into your world, into your book.
Richard Harris (00:19.153)
I know. Yeah. Yeah, if your listeners don't know, you've been on the Surfing Sales podcast and I think we ran you through the gauntlet okay. So now it's your turn to run me through a gauntlet.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:30.974)
Yeah. Well, look, can't wait. Let's go. And I see that you also released your book on with page two.
Richard Harris (00:38.457)
Yes, yes I did. It was referred to page two by our friend Andy Paul and it's been an amazing experience. So I'm now you know shockingly thinking of well what am I going to do for the second one?
Paul M. Caffrey (00:45.806)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (00:54.622)
Well, there you go. No surprise there. It's, I guess, looking for you. Typically, it's a once every few years sort of thing. So you can you can sit tight. So for those for those people who maybe aren't familiar with you or your work, you've obviously coined the phrase neat selling. And I think it'd be great maybe just to start there. How did that come about and why did you think that was needed at the time?
Richard Harris (01:01.805)
Right. Yeah, yeah, we'll see, we'll see.
Richard Harris (01:10.586)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (01:15.804)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (01:23.381)
Yeah, so when I started this business, you know, I was trying to differentiate myself, to be honest with you. That was the only thing. How could I market myself better? And at that point, you know, Bant was already on its way out, but Anom was sort of the new one, right? Authority, need, urgency and money. And I thought that was pretty cool. And then I was tooling around with this and I knew it was about need and I knew it was about
economic impact of the current need as opposed to ROI. Then I also realized that it's not about authority, it's about access to authority because you're never going to get to authority very early and we should stop talking about it, which we can dive into in a second. Then timeline. So I was playing around with it and I was going to call it Nate selling, create a little character and an icon and then I moved the letters around. I was like, oh, I could do neat.
Paul M. Caffrey (02:10.219)
Yes.
Richard Harris (02:16.453)
And then I can create a compass of like Northeast A and T, right? So it just sort of like became that image. And I was like, oh, that's a cool image to brand on. So that's how I came up with it. And the goal was to make something that, yes, it could be a process for some. It can be a methodology for others. And some is just a philosophy, right? Like I'm not a rip and replace guy. Like if someone's got medic in their system, then.
Paul M. Caffrey (02:42.379)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (02:46.361)
you know, don't rip and replace just because Richard Harris showed up, you can bolt on my strategies, you know, through a neat through a neat concept philosophy. And I tell people all the time like ripping and replacing has two challenges. One, it's often a new CRO VP of sales who wants to, you know, put their name on something, which I think is a waste of time and be If you're going to rip and replace
is the real reason you need to rip and replace, or is the real reason that nobody was coaching to the first one in the first place? Therefore, are you gonna coach to the new one anyway? So I'm not a huge fan of just walking in and ripping and replacing. So I think that's the genesis of it and the quick version of how I approach it and how I encourage people to think about it, because I don't, you know, it can be a philosophy. You know, you don't need to rip and replace.
Paul M. Caffrey (03:25.217)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (03:41.258)
Yeah, it's I think I think that's so you touch on the nuance of some very important things there. As in, I guess, the difference between sales methodology and sales philosophy. Many people think they're one in the same thing when they are quite different and can go hand in hand. So need selling on top of medic metric, whatever you might be doing, you know, does make a lot of sense. And I guess one thing I liked about it is the evolution of it. So, you know, budget and, you know, bands when I started out,
Richard Harris (03:57.127)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (04:11.109)
Right.
Paul M. Caffrey (04:12.232)
and looking at the economic impact of things. And that is still very, very relevant today. In fact, probably relevant more so because when we you might get someone at the start of an opportunity, but to get them to sign the dotted line, we need to be very clear on outcomes and what they're going to get and showing how that goes.
Richard Harris (04:17.341)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (04:23.276)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (04:32.441)
Yep. Yeah, there's a little bit of a nuance there too, is that, oh, and I will say this other thing, the reason this thing is a compass, by the way, is that you don't always have to go in that order, as opposed to anim or bant or even medic, right? Like that's not necessarily where you start. So that's why I created the compass, but economic impact is more about what is their present state? How is that present state affecting them commercially? And how is that present state?
hurting them. And that doesn't just mean saving time, you know, being more efficient and effective. It doesn't mean those hard costs. It means dollarizing those things. So yes, you can dollarize the time people spend and how many people that is and all those things. The flip side of that, though, is to also ask about, well, if you're getting this time back, or if this solution becomes easier, what are you doing with that extra time? And what is when you can do those things?
How is that helping your company economically? How is it gonna help you grow? And it's generally speaking, because you and I are in the tech space, it's generally speaking, well, if I have extra time, I can get new clients. Great, what's the lifetime value of each client you have, which should be at least three years. So now the economic impact of your solution isn't just the hard costs, it's the return on the other side, because it's...
Everybody brings up the bullshit around, you know, ROI, return on investment. And, um, and, and first of all, nobody believes the R ever. They only see the I and. You know, I read have redefined ROI as the return on insecurity. That's the problem. That's they're feeling insecure and CFOs love to use ROI as a scare tactic and CEOs, they use it as a tactic to ask for discounts and
Paul M. Caffrey (06:20.27)
Hmm
Richard Harris (06:30.541)
Anytime someone asked me about ROI, I would just turn around and say, Paul, let me ask you a question. Every time you talk to a salesperson, be truthful, how many times have you ever believed their ROI and their ROI calculation?
Paul M. Caffrey (06:44.002)
The one thing you can always say is it's wrong. No one ever gets that number right.
Richard Harris (06:46.825)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's never right. So, but how often do you believe them? And they chuckle, and they're like, and they'll go sometimes, I'm like, really? Sometimes. Out of the last 10 things you purchased, how many did you believe? And did you purchase because of that ROI calculation? They're like, well, you know, you're probably right, blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, I know I'm right, because it's bullshit. Here's your problem. And here's my solution.
Paul M. Caffrey (06:53.933)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (07:16.217)
It's a math equation. What would you like to do, Paul? Right? Like it's, and that's not even a hard close. It's like a logical close. So anyway, so that's, you know, I can rant on and on about the ROI, but I'll, I'll shut up now. I've kind of been ranting already.
Paul M. Caffrey (07:29.866)
Yeah, no, it's look, it's a key point. And, you know, or why it's used in two ways. It's used right. One is it's used really, really late to try to justify the price. And you're probably already lost a deal when you're scrambling around and trying to get metrics and do that. Or then the other the other side of it is it's well, this needs to be part of the business case, it needs to go to the board, needs to be justified. And I think if it's now in the head, the reality is it's actually the justification, the outcome.
Richard Harris (07:41.435)
Yep.
Paul M. Caffrey (07:56.814)
the story that is a lot more impactful, important than the actual numbers of the ROI. And we may be tend to focus a little bit too much on the ROI and probably not enough on the narrative. But again, that's another topic for another day. One one thing that I noticed you called out in your book is. You call out that there's thousands of universities, colleges out there and.
Richard Harris (07:56.909)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (08:12.967)
Sure.
Paul M. Caffrey (08:25.57)
you see that there's only 120 recognised sales courses. What do you think people should do if they want to get into the sales profession and be successful? Do you think that it's even worth going to do any of those courses?
Richard Harris (08:39.739)
So.
Richard Harris (08:43.413)
Well, so, you know, the theory is, is that, you know, you don't need a college degree to do sales. You really don't. You don't even need a college degree to do sales management and leadership, right? You got to be good with numbers. You got to figure out how to, you know, manage people, but you don't need a degree for that. And it sort of is, you know, shows how interesting the university system is set up, right?
you know, shorter being a lawyer or doctor, something that, you know, maybe an accountant that requires a certain level of certification, then it's, you know, nobody, you know, what does a marketing degree get you, right? It gets you, it gives you relevance. So to the point of college, you know, for me, college is all about the experience. What kind of experience do you wanna have? I do not want people going into debt over college. It's the silliest thing.
And I'll give this piece of advice, do not go get the loans for as long as possible. Trust me, Math 101 and English 101 is the same at the local community college as it is at Harvard. Trust me, nobody's hiring you because you took English 101 at Harvard. So that being said, if you want a college experience and a college degree, go get it.
Don't go into debt over it. In terms of sales, if you can afford the college and you can go take those things, I think it's great. It does give you a leg up. You are recruited heavily coming out of college from a sales degree. Because that company knows you already know all the different CRM systems, you know all the different processes and methodologies, you've practiced things. So, you know, your ramp time.
is much faster for someone like that. And you have a skill set that generally isn't taught very well at the actual company level. So I love the idea of it. I love the idea of going to do it. I just don't want people to go into debt to go get a sales job when you don't need to. And you can learn so much on your own. So
Paul M. Caffrey (10:52.03)
Yeah, yeah. I think like you hit upon it, you the difference between university, it's network, right, you get your network from and that's probably going to be the biggest, the biggest change. When. You share in the book that we've been all lied to. But there's no such thing as customer's journey. I thought that was that was quite, quite a good point to drill into. What does that mean?
Richard Harris (11:00.805)
Yeah, that's true too. Yes, yeah.
Richard Harris (11:12.035)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (11:16.37)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so I don't believe in the buyer's journey. I only believe in the seller's journey. And believe me, I pitched the same thing. So it sort of took me some time to figure this out. What matters is the buyer's experience. We purchase things based on the experiences we're having, right, whether it's inbound or outbound, does not matter.
Paul M. Caffrey (11:21.971)
for sellers out there.
Richard Harris (11:46.613)
Nobody wants to talk to a salesperson until they've had an experience that instigates the desire to talk to a salesperson. That's inbound or outbound. Something happened before someone did research on Google. Something happened or is happening when you cold call them that makes them go, oh, yeah, I'd like to learn more. So it's about that experience that matters. The journey is what's created by sales and marketing.
The journey is, okay, when they're interested, what journey are they going on? Look, and to sort of validate this, how many of us have downloaded an app or used a website and the experience was so frustrating that we walked away? How many people have called, I don't care if it's your doctor or the insurance or the cable company, whatever, it's like, how many buttons do you need to press before you are frustrated?
Right, like the first button is, okay, it's annoying. You know, I got it. I understand why it makes sense. I don't want to talk to the wrong person. Second button's like, okay, well, I'm getting closer. Third button, you're like, fuck, I'm ready to talk to somebody, right? Now I'm getting annoyed. Then the next one is I'm getting frustrated or I might get frustrated first, then I get annoyed and then I get angry. So after about five buttons punching on the phone, I'm frustrated and angry. It's because I'm having a terrible buyer's experience.
right through the seller's journey. So that's the rationale for calling out BS on the buyer's journey.
Paul M. Caffrey (13:19.542)
Yeah. And I like, if you think about it really logically, you know, in sales terms, we would think of a sales cycle as this could be eight months. This is 12 months long. This is whatever. But people buying it, they don't tend to think of it like that. They might think, well, it was six hours. I did six meetings or I did four meetings. It was, it was a half a day of work on my side.
Richard Harris (13:27.631)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (13:31.452)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (13:41.277)
Do you, I don't know. I, you know what? I see the concept behind that. I guess if I think about bigger enterprise deals, I think they anticipate it can take this much time, right? And I also think, I mean, I don't know. This is a good question. I'll flip it back to you. Yeah. Right. And yeah, and not to mention what other projects they have.
Paul M. Caffrey (14:00.313)
Yeah. And their team's time as well. There's little resource that goes into it if it's a big organization for sure.
Richard Harris (14:09.485)
So I do think that they think about it in terms of like, when do I want to execute on this, right? And why is that date important or what's affecting that date? It's interesting because this is actually a negotiation tactic I use is that sometimes people don't realize how many hours they put in.
Paul M. Caffrey (14:16.833)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (14:33.025)
And so when you get to the end and they're like trying to negotiate you down on price, you know, it's not a hard tactic to say, well, you know, Mark, Paul, I've done my, my background information. You know, I've done, I did a little analysis, you know, it looks like your entire team has spent about 20 hours putting this together, right. With all the six people that are on there.
And I actually have a little spreadsheet I use for this. And by the way, I've included some of my meets, some of what I think are your team meetings. What I haven't included is if those team leaders have to go talk to their team. So I understand you wanna get this down by about $5,000. I totally understand, I get it. I guess my question is, are you really willing to make everybody go waste all that time over $5,000? Because it's gonna cost you way more than that, right?
And so there's an economic impact to, you know, the decision process, not just, you know, what's their current state. So, I do wonder how people think about it because sometimes I don't even think they think about it because I have to have that conversation. But I could be, my mind could be changed.
Paul M. Caffrey (15:25.868)
Oh.
Paul M. Caffrey (15:48.35)
Yeah, it's an interesting one. So what you're doing there is you're extrapolating the cost to the enterprise of actually, you know, finishing off evaluating another provider and going with them instead of you as they're already at the finish line. Yeah.
Richard Harris (15:57.33)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, great, how's that gonna delay your project? How's that gonna impact your business? And so these are the things that people aren't taught when it comes to negotiation, whether it's with procurement or anybody else. Those are the things that I think are in the back of our mind, it's just never been sort of taught that way.
Paul M. Caffrey (16:29.778)
Yeah. And negotiations and interesting one because, you know, SaaS sellers arguably don't get enough negotiating experience because we don't get to that stage enough times in deals, you know, particularly mid market enterprise, the hurry you go, you could only negotiate a few times a year, right? That's, it's a pretty crazy when you think about it. Apart from, like, let's say the obvious is.
Richard Harris (16:38.601)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Richard Harris (16:46.876)
Yeah.
Yep.
Paul M. Caffrey (16:53.698)
the number of years, the amount of products, the usual four levers that we would actually consider from a negotiation standpoint. What else do you think sellers should be mindful of or consider leaning into a little more?
Richard Harris (16:57.341)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (17:07.929)
I think they need to lean into their mindset, right? As much as anything. You know, it's interesting. We go to parties or we meet people or we're at the pub or whatever, and people are like, you know, oh, so what do you do? And you go around the horn and one's a doctor and one's a lawyer, and then we go, I'm in sales. And they all sort of snicker, right? And it's like, fuck you.
Like, can I say that by the way? If you need to believe me, it's okay. But it's like, Paul, you're a brain surgeon. I get it. You save lives. How many people's livelihoods have you actually affected? If I'm a salesperson, the number of people who purchase my product and how that helps them in their life and their career, and maybe taking care of their family because maybe they get promoted, that's way more impactful.
Paul M. Caffrey (17:36.481)
Yeah, yeah, go for it.
Richard Harris (18:04.325)
It's not more important, it's just more impactful. I, you, every salesperson, every sales leader directly affects multitudes more of humans and their ability to take care of their families than any lawyer or doctor that I know.
Paul M. Caffrey (18:25.034)
Yeah, I think it's very important to lean into that. Yeah.
Richard Harris (18:29.259)
And so you kind of got to lean into, yeah, I'm in sales. Like the first chapter of the book is called, yeah, I'm in sales. Let's be proud of it. Right. And what's also funny, because I also turned this around on the doctor and the lawyers to say, by the way, fuck you twice, because guess what? You're in sales, Mr. or Mrs. lawyer. You're trying to sell your story to the jury or the judge. Doc.
You're in sales. Don't tell me your hospital doesn't look at how much billing you bring in every year. Don't tell me that. Don't tell me that you don't have to sell your patients on a certain option or procedure. Doesn't mean you're driving them to the wrong one, but you are selling. So it's kind of like, everybody needs to kind of shut up. So, yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (19:19.402)
Yeah, it's super interesting. I remember selling a CRM to a law firm many years ago and one of the partners, the first thing that we don't sell. And you're on, okay, so how do your 35 lawyers actually solicitors, how do they get business? And basically they network, right? So they're every day of the week, they're going to parties, they're networking this, that, the other and business is coming in.
Richard Harris (19:26.597)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (19:33.682)
How do you make money?
Richard Harris (19:46.941)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (19:47.41)
And so then you're kind of is, oh, okay. So it's a different, you've called it a different name, but you're a drumming up business. So, well, I think owning the fact that you're in sales and being proud of that is important. And I think that is something that we maybe need to lean on because most people will say that they fell into it as opposed to chose it. I know you speak about this in the book.
Richard Harris (19:54.234)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (19:58.938)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (20:07.017)
Totally agree. Yeah, it is, sales is often the dumpster fire of other failed careers, right? And there's nothing wrong with saying, and again, what's wrong with saying it? I tried six things, it didn't work out. So, okay, great. You found something you love, you found something that works for you. Yeah, it's like I messed stuff up, you know? So, that's just the way it is.
Paul M. Caffrey (20:14.347)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (20:34.026)
Yeah, I do. Um, I completely agree. And I remember actually later on that chat shop, you talk about how sales can, um, I think it says something like it can fuck with your mind. I can fuck with your life. Uh, and you kind of go on a new sales leader can have such an impact, negative or positive. Um, on that, how do you think people say we've all been there? We've all experienced that. How should we deal with that?
Richard Harris (20:48.091)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (20:52.954)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (21:03.197)
Well, I think the first thing we have to do is recognize we're humans, right? We're not gonna get it all right all the time. You and I still both make mistakes in our own deals, right? Or we overlook something or we lose deals and we win deals. So I think the first piece is to sort of give yourself a little bit of grace and give yourself a little bit of space to understand the difference between.
continually learning and educating and, you know, beating yourselves up too much. I think it's a guy named Dr. Rick Hansen says, you know, the brain is like Velcro for negativity and Teflon for positivity, right? We reject all the positives, right? And I think salespeople are acutely aware of that because we actually fail more than we...
win, right? Like, you know, if I close 60% of my deals, I'd be thrilled. But I don't believe that's true for anybody. Maybe it's at that huge enterprise deal where you only get four deals a year and you close three out of them. Okay, I got it. You know, but I
Paul M. Caffrey (22:08.094)
Yeah, but I think when people have that percentage, they're maybe overlooking what they've dismissed earlier in the pipeline. So it is at a certain stage of qualification, right? But yeah, it is definitely a career filled with, I'm not going to say more failure, but definitely more rejection than success.
Richard Harris (22:15.217)
Totally. Right.
Richard Harris (22:24.017)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Paul M. Caffrey (22:29.019)
And one of the things I notice you dedicated a whole chapter to is accountability tactics. And I think that's something that we can all be guilty of letting ourselves and others off to hook on that. What are a few things sellers can do to actually improve in that area?
Richard Harris (22:34.254)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (22:43.367)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (22:50.181)
Well, it's interesting, you know, I believe the more you dive into next steps, right? And the more you articulate the next steps, the more the action items actually pop up. Right. And therefore I can share both of those with my prospect or customer by sharing here are the next steps and asking for next steps.
you know, that's something you can do to drive their accountability and yours, because it's not just one or the other, it's both of us, right? So I think that's the first thing. I think, you know, we have to get better at closing on next steps, as much as we have to be better at closing the deal, right? And I asked that question, a lot of people would like,
You know, do you really want to improve your close ratio or do you need to improve your, your closing or asking the question of what are our next steps. And it'd be you'd be surprised how often they're like, oh yeah I guess we do need to do that part better. It doesn't mean you don't need to improve your closing like yes of course you need to improve your closing. But if you back it up into the funnel, right. You know that's kind of the piece so
Paul M. Caffrey (24:02.474)
Yeah, of course. Everything, you know, everything helps.
Richard Harris (24:10.661)
So one is that the other is note taking the other. I mean, there's so many summary tools out there now to not have one is horrible. For me to hold myself accountable, I take copious notes even though I have recorders in and I send those notes over to my prospect. My note is a template that I bring up when someone gets on a call. And it's got a bunch of things already templated in there. One, cause I don't wanna retype it, but in reality it's cause
Oh, it makes me remember to ask them. It's like, Oh, what's your sales stack? Like you can go deep into a sales training conversation and forget to ask about, well, what is your sales stack? Right? Because it's not really the first question I really want to focus on, at least in my way of doing things. So I have it in my email so I can remind myself to ask. You know, so that's how I do things. But I also have a terrible memory in general. So I need that prompt. I need that.
Paul M. Caffrey (24:43.436)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (25:09.253)
that piece. So it's as much for me as it is for them. So that's one way that I hold myself accountable. The other one, and this is the hardest part because I think I'm guilty of it is, it's the discipline to hold myself accountable. Right? You know, it's, you know, why are professional athletes so good at their job? They have the discipline to keep training. Why are lawyers and doctors so good at their role? Because they have the discipline.
to study that much or stay on top of it. Look, if I've got a brain surgeon, I wanna know that he's reading the latest medical journals before he touches me, right? And he's got the discipline or she has the discipline to do that. Whereas, sometimes in sales, we get a little lazy.
Paul M. Caffrey (25:57.538)
Yeah, it's very easy, I find, for people to rely on their experience. You know, I've got through these negotiations, I've got through demos, discoveries before, up to this point. And then maybe not to be as sharp on, you know, the questions that they need to look at, the research, the preparation, so that, oh, yeah, this person has this requirement or they're using that to your point, that stack. OK, that could mean something else as opposed to you can just go in and have that conversation and you'll do pretty well, but you'll probably miss something.
Richard Harris (26:14.425)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (26:19.314)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (26:24.049)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.
Paul M. Caffrey (26:26.678)
You know, you'll notice that decline and it's a real tricky one because experience can actually be a really bad thing in sales as much as we always think experience is the best thing to get.
Richard Harris (26:34.685)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, because we'll start to forget things. It's it's and it's also interesting on the on the flip side of that. This isn't my phrase, but I think it's in the book. But it's it's, you know, we salespeople are the biggest instigators of change. That's our job is to change people and their behaviors and their way of doing things. Yet sometimes we're the hardest people to change. Like, you know, we're like, oh, I should try that. And then we kind of forget to do that.
Or we start doing something and it works. And then for some reason, cause we get bored, we change it. And then we often wonder why is this not working anymore? So it's just an interesting, you know, it's an interesting place for us in sales and where we sit and how we do things.
Paul M. Caffrey (27:23.434)
Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. And I always think you should be trying something that is taking you a little out of your comfort zone in deals. Now, I'm not saying that you should gamble on every single deal, but there should definitely be trying out a question, trying out a threat. You know, trying something a little bit different. Seamot lands what doesn't nearly like a comedian. One thing on the accountability thing that I've done over the years that I found has worked really well is if it's a significant evaluation.
Richard Harris (27:32.037)
Yes. Right.
Richard Harris (27:38.081)
Right. Yep.
Paul M. Caffrey (27:49.838)
where there's going to be a number of meetings involved, whether it's demos, discovery, other teams, whatever, is getting commitment from the champion to actually book those sessions in provisionally into the diary in advance. And you can very quickly gauge where someone's at if they're actually bought into going through with the evaluation, if they're really looking at it, or if they're pushing back and they don't want to organize even something provisional, then you realize, oh, maybe there's actually not a deal here, or maybe I've missed something and we're not as far along as we think.
Richard Harris (27:52.741)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (28:01.161)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (28:09.712)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (28:13.702)
Yep.
Richard Harris (28:17.61)
Yep.
Paul M. Caffrey (28:20.078)
And so again, it kind of it goes to that point of driving accountability. I guess the next thing that's going to come up and again, like your book, it's.
Richard Harris (28:26.853)
Yeah. Did you, by the way, do you want to, do you want to know a question and tactic around that, around your champion? So you know, again, I did this too for the longest time. We were taught to, well, who's the authority? Who's going to make the decision? Can I get in on that team meeting? Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only thing you need to say is, Hey, Paul.
Paul M. Caffrey (28:35.148)
We're all about tactics. Please.
Richard Harris (28:53.317)
You know, I know when we get off this call, you're gonna go talk to your team about this, right? That's how it always goes. Just out of curiosity, Paul, who on that team is the most skeptical and what are they generally skeptical about? And Paul's gonna, I'm gonna take Paul out of his own mindset. Paul's gonna know exactly who that person is. And Paul's gonna tell me because nobody's ever taught him not to answer that question because you're never gonna get to the authority.
until you get through all the skeptics. And sometimes the biggest skeptic might actually be the authority. And to a certain degree, early on, when you ask that question, they're the only authority figure you need to pay attention to at that point. Who are the skeptics and what are they skeptical about? So anyway, so that's just, and again, that's one of those things it's now in my email template that says, who are the skeptics?
Paul M. Caffrey (29:42.21)
I really like that, yeah.
Richard Harris (29:49.649)
because I need to hold myself accountable to remember to ask that question.
Paul M. Caffrey (29:54.482)
Yeah, it's so, so important. And another way to think of it, I really like is if, you know, if you notice five or six people involved, who was for this solution, who wants it, who doesn't care? And to your point, who's sceptical or thinks this is a bit of BS? This is unnecessary, whatever. And it's quite interesting, even when you actually let's say that the top person is on board and they want to bring you in or your solution in. If their team is pushing back.
Richard Harris (30:02.024)
Yes.
Richard Harris (30:08.707)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Harris (30:16.626)
Uh huh.
Richard Harris (30:22.606)
Yes.
Paul M. Caffrey (30:22.646)
you're probably going to miss out because we have to make it easy for power for one for better phrase to be able to say yes. And if you gots over that, because you might think, well, that person's maybe not highly ranked, it can still throw a spanner into works. So the skeptical question, I like that asking it direct. Yeah.
Richard Harris (30:27.418)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (30:34.789)
Right. Yeah. And that's why I asked the skeptic. Yeah. That's why I like that question more than who else is even on board or who else is driving. I mean, at some point you could say, well, what's driving this initiative? Right. Because what's driving the initiative means there's an experience. Right. And even if the answer to that question is a who, oh, my boss said this should happen. Okay. Well, what makes your boss think this is important? I'm removing
of someone giving up too much personal information about a human as opposed to a live situation. So that's, psychologically, those are the things I tell myself to convince myself that this is the right way to do it.
Paul M. Caffrey (31:12.343)
Hmm.
Paul M. Caffrey (31:22.002)
like that. And when, when you tackle the skeptic, let's say, and whether it's the end up in the direct conversation, email chain or something else. What, what tips or tactics have you got for people who will then need to handle objections, bad off competition? What way do you think seller should approach that?
Richard Harris (31:26.02)
Uh huh.
Richard Harris (31:30.521)
Uh-huh.
Richard Harris (31:41.385)
Yeah, so based on the way I'm interpreting your question, you know, we don't handle objections, we marinate in them. We have to spend time talking about them. So when you bring up the competition, you know, if it's a feature, hey, Richard, you know, how can you do this like your competitor? You know, my answer to that question is say, Paul, well, so I answered that question appropriately, Paul.
How important is that feature to you making this decision? Because that's what I need to know first. Because if I walk into that realm of, well, we have this workaround and blah, now all of a sudden I sound weak. I sound like we're inferior. And I don't need to do that. I need to know how important this feature is. Because that's really the question that matters. Not whether or not we can do it.
Because they might be like, oh, it's not that important. We were just curious. OK. All right, so now I can answer. We do have a solution, and it's a workaround. Or yes, here's how we can handle it. So that's one way to handle a competition question when it's feature related. When people say, hey, Richard, why should we choose you over your competition? Now they want something, and we all get sort of squirrely, and we don't want to sound egotistical. My suggestion is to say, hey, Paul,
You know, can I share something with you about what our customers say? And no, Paul will go, yeah. And he's like, well, you know, Paul, what our customers have told us are, actually, I say it this way, our most successful customers have shared that they chose us because of blank, blank and blank. And there are two parts to that. One, I'm removing an emotional component. I'm letting my customer sell for me.
And I dropped in that word, our most successful. Because who, when you're selling, doesn't wanna be one of the most successful people.
Richard Harris (33:43.601)
So again, little sentences, interesting words to put in there, right? You can also do the phrase of, hey Paul, you know, can I share with you what our happiest and most successful customers have told us, right? Maybe the issue is that they're having a bad experience with support. Oh, well, would you like to know, cause there's a pain of change, right? For them to rip and replace something, there's a pain, they have to measure that. Like, oh, so you've had bad support.
Can I share with you what our happiest customers have said about us? Now all of a sudden, they want to be happy. So that's the approach there.
Paul M. Caffrey (34:23.038)
Yeah, it's there's so much tactical nuance there. And that's exactly what I'm talking about. You want to be bringing these into your conversations, new phrase to see how it lands and see if it works for you, your situation, your solution. Continuing down that track, let's shoot through some quick fire questions. So Richard, what is your number one prospecting tip?
Richard Harris (34:27.067)
Mm-hmm.
Richard Harris (34:34.905)
Yep.
Richard Harris (34:49.022)
My number one prospecting tip is that it's going to take a whole lot longer than everybody else thinks it's going to take. And right now, everybody's calling about prospecting, which tells me everybody's inbox is getting flooded. So you need to adjust. Two is you got to know how to discuss the pains you solve, not what you do. Nobody cares what you do. Nobody cares that Richard's a sales trainer.
But when I say I teach reps how to earn the right to ask questions, which questions to ask and when, there's not a sales leader or CEO who doesn't go, yeah, we need our team to be better at that. So talk about the pains you solve in their frame of mind versus what you do.
Paul M. Caffrey (35:32.462)
Excellent, really like that. What is your number one sales tip?
Richard Harris (35:38.945)
Um, my number one sales tip is to keep the conversation conversational, right? You have to earn the right to ask questions even on inbounds. So knowing how to run a respect contract at the beginning of the call, being fearless and saying, Hey, Paul, if this isn't the right fit, just tell me. I promise I won't waste your time. And by the way, Paul, if I realize I can't help you, I'll tell you, I'll even tell you who you should talk to. Like you say something like that to somebody.
and people fall in trust with you. They don't need to fall, we don't need them to fall in love. We want them to fall in trust. And that builds more trust than anything else that's out there.
Paul M. Caffrey (36:19.582)
Yeah, I really like that. And ultimately, you know, not being afraid to call out that I hope we're a fit. But if we're not, we're not, you know, it's been straightforward.
Richard Harris (36:29.585)
Right. What's wrong with saying it? That's the deal. Cause I don't want anybody to ghost me. They still will. Right? But if I've said that at the beginning, I can then send an email later that says, Hey Paul, you know, when we first spoke, we agreed that if this wasn't a good fit, we'd let each other know. When I go three or four weeks and don't hear from somebody, it generally means that's what's happening. Can you let me know so I don't keep bugging you? So it makes it an easier way to try to reengage as one step.
Paul M. Caffrey (36:54.466)
Yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:00.318)
Yeah. And then you look, you get that quite sometimes you get that response of, oh, no, I was out of office or something happened or no, such and such was sick. And then you realize, oh, the deal is still alive. Great.
Richard Harris (37:06.932)
Yeah.
And even more importantly, more importantly, I can go to bed at night knowing I did it the right way. I can go back to my boss and say, Paul, look, I ran the respect contract. I told them they could tell me. I told them that I could tell them. And they've ghosted me. By the way, I sent this message. And I've made three, you know, it's not that one message. That one message won't always do it. But I've sent these tactics. So you know what? I don't know what else, you know, I mean.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:17.664)
Yeah.
Richard Harris (37:37.393)
It could be you did bad discovery. It could be a hundred other things, but it's like, at least I can know I did my job.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:37.624)
Excellent.
Paul M. Caffrey (37:43.294)
makes total sense. I know, look, we're just about to wrap up. So one more question. And if we think of preparation in sales, particularly, what does doing the work before the work look like in your world, Richard?
Richard Harris (37:54.445)
Yeah, it means utilizing the tools that are out there to help you understand what your goals are of the call and what the goals of your prospect are. Right. You know, it's, it's easy to say, Hey, Paul, look, I know on this call and future calls, you know, we're on a fact finding mission, right? You're trying to figure out if we can help you. I'm trying to figure out if I can help you. Right. So knowing what those goals should be is really important.
I also think knowing your case studies and use cases matter is very important because you're gonna bring those up. And then the third tactic is making sure I know the first two questions I'm gonna ask, right? Which the first question is always, the first question is always, so Paul, what's happening over there that made you wanna even have a conversation, right? So that's the easiest question to ask and now you're off to the races.
Paul M. Caffrey (38:37.742)
I really like that.
Paul M. Caffrey (38:47.307)
Really like that.
Paul M. Caffrey (38:53.198)
Cool. Excellent. Well, I know we're there on time and you were, we're talking about the seller's journey. So how can people reach you? How can they find out more about the book?
Richard Harris (39:04.709)
Yeah, so the book is available on Amazon and everywhere. The seller's journey, it's on, oh, look at that, how pretty. And we're doing a special, my birthday is actually, no fooling, April 1st. So between now and April 1st, you can get the ebook for a dollar. So that's my birthday present to everybody else. You can find me at theh and I'm crazy Paul, plus one, 415.
Paul M. Caffrey (39:11.525)
Here it is.
Richard Harris (39:34.459)
596- is my real cell phone number, because it's the number my kids ignore every time I call and text them. I've got teenagers, Paul. So yes, I will WhatsApp chat with you, I will text you. If you wanna call me, call me. Text me first to say you heard me on Paul's show, so I know to answer the call. But yeah, get ahold of me, and you can find me on LinkedIn, Richard Harris as well. So I'm the one with the little trademark by my name.
Paul M. Caffrey (39:58.53)
Well. Yes, yeah, I see that. It's lovely. There you go. You've got a direct line to Richard, so no excuse. Check out the book. Really, really excellent. Richard, thanks so much for coming on and look forward to the next time we chat.
Richard Harris (40:12.965)
Me too, Paul. Thanks for having me.
Paul M. Caffrey (40:15.574)
Thank you.
