Paul M. Caffrey (00:01.006)
And as I mentioned, I'm delighted to be joined by Aisling O 'Connor from skilltribe .io. Aisling, how are you?
Ashling (00:06.915)
I'm very well, very well. Actually, that's a really good opening because one of the questions I always help candidates prepare for is, how are you? Because it's the one question you can guarantee in every interview will come up. But I'm very well, Paul, how are you doing?
Paul M. Caffrey (00:22.446)
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm pretty good. I think we had a little bit of a glitchy internet there, but that's okay. That'll be edited out. So, but yeah, yeah, things are good. So how are you?
Ashling (00:29.891)
Okay.
Ashling (00:34.019)
I'm good, I'm good. It's funny that you ask how I am because that's the one question that I can guarantee with every candidate they can prepare for. It's a funny question because we're all so used to it. We kind of move through that question, just blanket statement. Good, how are you? But actually, funny enough, considering you always know it's going to come up, it's an opportunity for you to start off the conversation a little differently. So I'm good, Paul. I've actually just finished a really good book.
I'm sure you've read Shoe Dog by Phil Knight talking about the story of Nike. So yeah, just finished that book before this call and had a lot of good notes to take from that.
Paul M. Caffrey (01:14.574)
Oh, excellent. You've lots, lots of threads for me then to jump on and take a conversation this way or that way. I like it. And I listened to that book a long, long time ago. I must go back to it. And well, I guess it was probably a lot of questions then that people can expect in the interview process. And I guess before we jump into that, for anybody who's maybe not familiar with the Aisling, could you outline how you help people?
Ashling (01:50.147)
We're struggling, aren't we?
Paul M. Caffrey (01:53.902)
You didn't get that question?
Ashling (01:55.491)
No, sorry, the internet, it's saying it's 78%, 79%.
Paul M. Caffrey (02:01.294)
That's OK. The editing software is super good. This this actually doesn't really happen too often, which is quite good as well. So one other side note is your this has been recorded locally on both of our machines. So what it means is the HD beautiful uploaded version will look great, will sound great and won't actually capture any of the Internet recorded or anything that we miss, which is why it's better to zoom.
Ashling (02:07.971)
enough.
Ashling (02:14.787)
Okay. Okay.
Ashling (02:28.971)
Perfect.
Paul M. Caffrey (02:30.862)
Zoom doesn't have that feature. That's why Zoom is back up and this is the one that I use mainly. But look at that. The conversation we didn't need gets captured. Isn't that the way? So tell us a little bit about the people you help.
Ashling (02:34.915)
Got you.
Ashling (02:45.899)
Yeah. So, um, I help people who are in software sales from people who are actually trying to get into software sales. Maybe they're going through, through a career change through to STO's, BDO's, AEs, and even sales managers and directors. But my primary clients tend to be AEs and STO's.
Paul M. Caffrey (03:06.414)
Great. And we have a lot of A's, SDRs, sales leaders listening. And for anybody who maybe isn't familiar with that, it is effectively a salesperson. So whether you're creating appointments or you're closing just depends on which acronym you actually fall under. So from that perspective, you're always helping people who are looking to get promoted, who are looking to get a step ahead. How does somebody know if they're actually ready for that next step?
Ashling (03:31.361)
Mmm.
Ashling (03:37.603)
Yeah. So it depends. Sometimes you don't have a chance to be ready. Life has other plans and you know, you find yourself going through redundancy or, you know, you have to change country or for whatever reason life decides you're ready. But for those who are lucky enough to have the opportunity to ask that question, I think typically in a sales role, nobody chooses to go into sales because they're lazy. They tend to go in because they're ambitious people. Sales is not one of those.
industries where you can sit back, relax, and things are going to go well. So I think typically people feel they're ready when they're already doing well in their current role and they feel like they're ready for the next challenge. And there's certain steps to take to ensure you're ready for that if it's an internal promotion. But I think when you get to the point where you're performing well in your current role, it's definitely time to start talking to other people or asking yourself, what's next for me?
Paul M. Caffrey (04:34.574)
OK, and I think that's that's a good point to call out performing well in your current role, because I've definitely met salespeople and known people who have not been performing in their current role, but then still seeking that promotion because they've put so much time in or they've put, you know, they've been there for X amount of years. So that makes the story a little bit easier, I suppose, when you you are going for that promotion. And I saw that.
You help people get their desired job in 30 days. An amazing, an amazing number. How do you turn people around so fast?
Ashling (05:15.459)
Sorry, Paul, would you mind repeating the question?
Paul M. Caffrey (05:18.09)
No problem!
Paul M. Caffrey (05:25.166)
So I know when I was getting ready, when I was preparing for this interview, I noticed that you've got a lot of really compelling stats that really, really jump off the page. Helping people land their desired job in 30 days is probably the signature stuff that jumps out. What does somebody need to do to be ready to actually get a job within 30 days?
Ashling (05:50.243)
Okay, really good question. So there's two stages, there's two steps I help people with. The first one is to get more interviews and the second one is to get more offers from those interviews. So the first step is divided into two kind of major subsections. The first one is around your CV. So a lot of times in this market, people just...
use the old CV that got them a role. They kind of hobbled together what worked in the past and add in a few extra details from their current experience. And whilst that may have got your role in the past, in today's market, it's going to take more than that for you to stand out amongst the noise of 300, 400, 500 other candidates. So when it comes to your CV, the first thing I always tell people is find out what is your niche within SaaS. SaaS is simply a business model.
It's selling software as a subscription. It is not a niche within the niche. So if you are coming off the back of, for example, Paul, I know you mentioned you worked in Salesforce. That is a niche within SAS that CRM. So then you'd ask yourself, okay, well, considering I have really good momentum in this space, what other companies would value that experience, that network, the fact that I understand the pain points that I'm selling to of this type of persona. And so.
I help people to firstly find their niche. So the first thing to think of when you're looking at your niches, where do I already have positive momentum or work experience, both within SAS or maybe previously, like if you used to work in HR, well, maybe then going into HR tech would be a great example. The second thing is, what are you passionate about? Because as we know, SAS is kind of a crazy market. It's going up, it's going down.
But if you can work in a niche within SAS where you're genuinely interested in talking about that product, learning about that industry, speaking with those types of personas, that's going to help you to build longevity in your career and help you to stand out as a top candidate. And then the third thing you want is to understand what subsections within SAS are growing or likely to grow. Of course, at this stage, most subsections are growing, so that's not an issue.
Ashling (08:09.731)
And to be honest, the majority of people I speak to, they focus more on what's the next big thing rather than where do I have momentum? What am I passionate about? Which I think is the wrong way to look at it because again, SaaS is constantly changing, the market's changing. So you don't want to always be backing the next big thing because once that goes down, then you're kind of back to square one. So I help people to find their niche.
Then we create a very tailored CV for a SaaS sales manager. It's not like an accountant's CV. It's not a lawyer's CV. It's specific to SaaS sales and what the hiring manager is looking for. The next thing we do is we optimize your LinkedIn. We help you turn your LinkedIn into a landing page so you start getting recruiter in -mails, as well as making sure that when people land on your page, they're getting a really good first impression of you.
and they want to learn more about you. So it's kind of like a miniature pitch. Then we talk about referrals. How do we help you to get a referral into a company? And if you like this analogy, Paul, it's like when you're younger and you're going to a nightclub and you pull up in your taxi and you're looking at the people outside the nightclub and your eyes are out on sticks because there's a queue down the road around the corner and it continues on and you're looking at 200 people queuing up this nightclub.
and it's, you know, nighttime is cold and you're thinking, oh my God, I have to stand at the back of this queue. Meanwhile, you're looking at these people who go straight up to the bouncer. He looks at their names, checks them off and lets them straight in. And that's the equivalent of a referral. So I help candidates to get referrals. Then the next steps are how to ace the interviews. We go through core questions, which are questions that have a 90 % chance of coming up. And then we go through answering techniques.
So regardless of what questions come up, you know how to best present your experience, your skillset, why you, and those things combined is what help people to get a job so effectively and typically within 30 days.
Paul M. Caffrey (10:04.77)
Thank you.
Paul M. Caffrey (10:14.638)
That is a really comprehensive answer, Ashling. And there's a lot of different ways that we can go with things. And I guess if I take it, if I take a back a step when you're helping people find their niche, it feels like it's, it's an audit of the skills and the experience that they have. Do you recommend people then look to, you know, gain experience or improve those skills? Or is it just, just go with what you have?
Ashling (10:45.667)
Definitely, definitely you can add to them. So the first thing is it's like anything like you have to know what the goal is. So once you've uncovered where you want to focus in on the market and so you're like, okay, well, I know this is the piece of the market I want to go after. Well, then now I know what courses to do, what certifications to do, how to tailor my CV for those kind of industry trends and how to talk about my experience in a way that's most relevant.
So it starts with the end in mind. And then of course, as you mentioned, you can add in so easily relevant certifications, courses, recommendations, everything relevant to that industry, rather than kind of going jack of all trades, master of none. I have a background in FinTech, but also CRM. And I also worked in HR tech, but I'm not sure maybe I want to go into cloud. No problem. But that it makes it hard for you to stand out in the market if that's the kind of process you go after.
Paul M. Caffrey (11:41.294)
Yeah. And it's interesting, right? Because so many of us when we're selling products, we will focus on the niche. We'll go to a keep or so and we'll have our ICP figured out. And we know that we need to go narrow to be successful. But most of the time, our own career is kind of dictated by others. A recruiter reached out to us and we thought, oh, this looks like a good job. Or someone tapped us on the shoulder and said, you should go for that promotion. So.
I really like the idea of what you're talking about, actually, as in taking ownership of your own career, taking stock and being intentional. And I'm guessing you've kind of mentioned going towards what you're passionate about or what you're into versus going towards the momentum. So I can imagine so many people are probably trying to get into open AI. You know, they're open up a big premises and there's a whole big push into that industry at the moment. How can somebody actually figure out what they're passionate about or what areas they want to work in? So.
Is there any questions people should ask themselves if they want to prepare themselves to niche down to a certain industry?
Ashling (12:43.011)
Yeah, so really good question. So generally the broadest question you can ask yourself as a seller is, am I a more technical seller or am I more of a kind of people person seller? And I prefer more of a like intuitive, easy to use product. So for example, I was so fortunate to get offers in multiple different SaaS companies during my career. And some of those were FinTech companies. Some of those were companies that were doing really well in the developer space.
But I knew my heart wasn't in it. And what I was looking for is I needed a company where I could build momentum, where I could build a career so that even after X number of years in that company, that I would be employable in so many other companies because they would recognize my skillset, the network I had, the momentum, my track record of sales. And so I needed somewhere where I could genuinely enjoy learning about that product every single day, having those conversations with those types of personas.
So I would say first ask yourself, what kind of products do I personally enjoy? Do I like a more technical cell? Is that my background? Or am I more of a easy to use kind of a product, like the likes of like a Notion or a Dropbox versus let's say a MongoDB or a Datadog. So that's the first kind of question to ask yourself. Then within, once you figure that out, it's like what companies and products again, am I naturally passionate about?
In sales, the easiest way to convince people to buy something is when you truly believe in it. If you're forcing yourself to try and sell something that you don't wholeheartedly believe in, your job is going to be hell. Whereas if you're thinking, this is the best solution in the world, they will be lucky to have this. And you're so excited and you're so convinced of the solution, your job is going to be so much easier.
Paul M. Caffrey (14:37.134)
Yeah, I like that. And conviction does mask a lack of sales skills. If you truly believe in something that will actually help you, you know, where you fall short a lot, which is why we see a lot of founders do so well, because they're so convicted on what they sell. And then their early sales team struggle because they maybe see the gaps that are customer success doesn't really exist properly yet. Or, you know, there's some big bugs or whatever that could be.
So, okay, that's really, really actionable stuff, which is super. Now, one thing that you mentioned a few minutes ago, and I wanted to jump back into it, because I think a lot of people listening will be super interested, is your CV should point out things that sales managers are looking for. What are sales managers looking for?
Ashling (15:26.179)
Okay. So I have been on the other side of the table. I've been a sales manager and I did hundreds of interviews myself. As well as that, I sat in in other people's interviews for lots of different roles. So I got to experience not only my own perception of what makes a great CV, but also lots of other different sales leaders. As well as that, I have helped hundreds of candidates get jobs. So at this stage, whether it's you're applying to HubSpot or the next startup,
I've kind of seen it all in terms of what hiring managers are looking for. And it boils down to these key things. The first is your CV should not look like a generic CV. And this is the point of getting referrals. If you are trying to apply through a website or through LinkedIn, not to, this is a complete exaggeration, but you might as well throw your CV in the bin because.
you're going up against 500 other candidates and your CV has to go through ATS software, which is really, really hard to figure out because the thing is most SaaS companies use a variety of different SaaS or a variety of different ATS softwares and they're all programmed differently. So it's not a case of two plus two equals four. Okay, we need to put that part in our CV and it will get past ATS. And that is the problem with applying through websites. So I always recommend people go down the referral route.
Once you're down that route, then you have the opportunity to tailor your CV. You can make it look aesthetically pleasing. You can make it, and I'm not going to go into all of the details that we hear for a while, but you can make it look like the type of, even when it comes to the colors you use or the marketing you use, that from the minute or the second that they open your CV, they say, that looks like one of us. That looks like the kind of colors we use in SaaS. That looks like the way that they've.
the writing style, the things that they've mentioned, the way they've structured their CV. So the first thing is it has to look like a SaaS sales CV. The second thing is it needs to detail the things that the hiring manager is looking for. And typically in your work experience, people write a long blurb. Basically they write these bullet points and within the bullet points, you'll see really interesting pieces of data and then a lot of text and another piece of interesting data and then a lot of text.
Ashling (17:44.035)
And so you make it difficult for the hiring manager and the recruiter to spot where the results here, you know, how did this person perform in that H1? What, what happened there? Did they get promoted or what was you, you're making it too difficult. So instead you structure your work experience under three subheadings, results, recognition and responsibilities and give the hiring manager what they want under results. You detail quarter and quarter, year on year, whatever makes sense.
what your results were and what the ARO target was and your percentage. Then in recognition, you talk about things such as I was voted top new AE in this quarter, or I was awarded for the most amount of new business pipeline, or I won this award. You talk about those kinds of softer things. And then in responsibilities, this is where you don't start listing everything that you have to do as an AE. Don't mention anything that's obvious.
Instead, you give again, tangible or credible pieces of information. So for example, I was responsible for managing a book of business of X number of accounts in Y territory. My segment was mid market, which was X number of employees to Y number of employees, that kind of information. So it's much more succinct and actionable types of information. And then the third thing is everything that kind of frames the CV. So relevant courses and certifications.
tools you may have used, sales methodologies you may understand, any references from previous managers, as well as key things like your profile, which essentially is your miniature pitch, or the kind of summary of your career highlights. So you basically weave or knit these things together to create what becomes essentially your version of a pitch. It's like everyone in sales always talks about a pitch deck. This is your version of your own pitch deck for yourself.
Paul M. Caffrey (19:35.086)
Yep.
Okay. And let's say you've hit target one year or one quarter, but maybe you've had a couple of quarters where things have been a bit slow. Um, I'm guessing people would naturally be inclined just to put on a couple of highlights of things that went well. Um, should, do you recommend people call out if they've had a bit of a tough time with certain situations or actually not don't don't put that on.
Ashling (20:02.177)
It's a really good question. So I like, I'm so fortunate at this point at my business that I have very intimate relationships with my clients. So it's hard for me to give blanket statements in this scenario because I find it really helpful to understand the context. Because when I go through the context with individuals, typically what I find out is that actually it's not that they were, you know, the world's greatest seller and then they had a terrible few years. It's that.
the environment which they were in changed and they went from being in a high performing environment to things outside of their control perhaps or being in a different territory or did there's some rationale behind their results. And once I understand that rationale, then it's a case of how do we frame that? Because as a seller, no seller is gonna go through a long career history and always over perform. That's just not the way the cookie crumbles. So.
instead of worrying about the fact that you have had those difficult times, it's just like, how do we frame it in such a way that we talk about the successes within the hardship and how those things helped you to get you to where you are today? And I think one of the things as well that's important to note, let's say, for example, I had one client and he had gone from being a top performer to being less than 40 % average attainment. That looks...
horrific, like, you know, he had worked in these huge companies, he'd been in president's club, you know, top performer. And then for like two years, he was bottom of the pile. But when we looked into it, when we fleshed it out, turns out he was like still in the top 10%. It was just that the environment he was in, the average attainment was so low. And so when we were able to kind of go through the context, it allowed us to then reframe how we presented those results so that he ended up then getting a 50k bump.
in his salary, he went from being a mid -market underperformer to getting an enterprise role where he got that 50K bump, all because we one, understood his niche and two, we talked about how to frame those results. The third thing we did was we practiced interview questions. So when they asked about those tough times, he was able to use that to build credibility because again, the hiring manager is not looking for perfection. They actually like a seller who's gone through tough times.
Ashling (22:24.387)
so long as you learn something from it and you've taken that into your sales today to make you a better seller.
Paul M. Caffrey (22:32.398)
Great. There's there's so much there actually that people can leverage. The comparison is absolutely key. You know, comparing yourself first, how the org or how the business is doing, because as you said, the whole market is down a little bit, although it's picking up, but maybe it's going down a little touch again. But I mean, that's that's another story. And the other side of it is the adversity. I find sales managers, they're more interested in the fact that you can come up, come up with and execute a plan.
Can be the wrong plan might not work, but the fact that you can follow along and stick with something is also something that you can highlight whether it works or it doesn't, because at least then if they put you onto the right, they give you the right territory or the right way to take it on that you can go and make make the most of it. One thing that jumps out is there are people who've been laid off. Some it's it's very public because there's a big announcement and there's so many gone from a certain organization.
Others, it's a little bit more silent. So companies are getting rid of people and it is a layoff, but it's technically not right. They're just kind of, you know, getting rid of people here or there. Do you think should people own the fact that they've been laid off or is that something that they should avoid? So, for example, there are lots of people on LinkedIn who have left companies and are still working in an organization. And I guess they're leaving that there because they want to be considered for roles.
Do you recommend that they do that or how do you take ownership of that situation? Because it is a tricky one and a lot of people are facing that at the minute.
Ashling (24:05.411)
Yeah, it's a really good one. So that one typically is a question that people dread in an interview. So it's like, why did you leave your previous company? Which again is an example of a core question, which I mentioned earlier, which is a 90 % chance of coming up. Like it's very likely in every interview they're going to ask that question. So you might as well prepare for it. So I like to use three steps to kind of answer that question. The first one is show gratitude for the opportunity that you had.
So let's say, for example, again, Paul, sorry to pick on you, but I know you said you worked in Salesforce. So you can say, I am so grateful for the opportunity that I had to join Salesforce. I joined in 2019 as part of the SMB team and I was responsible for leading X, Y and Z. During that time, I was lucky enough to build really strong relationships with my customers, with my prospects, and also with my colleagues. I also was able to attain an average result of whatever, whatever.
Then in 2022, after two or three really good years and you know, maybe dropping another one or two things that went really well for you. It came to a point where the business decided to make a just a strategic choice, which meant doubling down on X segment or Y strategy. And whilst I think that was the right thing for the business, it did come to a point where it impacted my role. And so my role, not myself, because you are not made redundant, you still exist. My role.
was impacted, my role was made redundant. However, whilst that was difficult for me because obviously things were going very well, it did provide me an opportunity with a chance to think about what I want next for my career, where I see myself going over the next five years. And it's from that time that I came to the conclusion that I'm looking for, and that's where you move on to telling them what you're looking for in your next role. So that's an example of how to talk about something difficult.
but you've actually turned it into a very positive answer.
Paul M. Caffrey (26:04.91)
Yeah, it's so, so key. And another thing to be very mindful of is how you talk about your previous company and your previous sales manager and your previous peers is how you're going to talk about the person that you're talking to right now in the future someday. So if you start saying that company was terrible, this was awful, they just didn't know how to do X, Y or Z straight away. Oh.
They'll be saying that about me in a couple of years time. And that really that can kill the momentum of an interview very, very quickly. So there is a little bit of that to be mindful of as well. That's what people are actually also hearing. So I like that. So, yeah, to turn it on and turn it into a positive. And what if someone says, well, you never updated your LinkedIn profile? How come your LinkedIn profile hasn't been updated?
Ashling (26:46.851)
Yeah.
Ashling (26:54.147)
So let's say, are you saying like if it still said you were.
Paul M. Caffrey (26:56.558)
So let's say the people are like, there are people leave on it that they're actually working in these roles. Let's say that they're gone six months, but it's still on LinkedIn. And then they're in the interview and then they're just getting that. That's those challenges. Or would you say, no, update your LinkedIn before going into this process that doesn't happen to you. Would that be a prepare? So that's not a possibility.
Ashling (27:09.931)
Yes.
Ashling (27:17.699)
So I'm kind of of the mindset that I think.
My personal belief is that the LinkedIn and your CV, the purpose of them, if you are currently a candidate in the market is to get you an interview. And so I personally do not have an issue with you letting your LinkedIn go for an extra month or two after the date that you were there, because in the interview you can explain the context, but sometimes you know yourself, people can judge a book by its cover.
And you might not get the opportunity to explain the fact that actually it was through redundancy. And so I personally, now contrary to some people's belief, I don't think there's an issue with leaving your LinkedIn go for an extra month or two. The other reason is that from the perspective of the company, it's let you go. They're acknowledging the fact that this is an unfortunate situation. We've had to let you go.
you're not asking for anything else. You're just simply allowing it to continue for an extra month or so on your LinkedIn. I personally have no issue with that. I think it's the context again, the interview. Yeah, yeah.
Paul M. Caffrey (28:20.238)
Okay, so don't worry about it guys.
Yeah, it's not it's not a big deal. Don't worry about it. So then if we I guess if we move things on, you spoke about somebody in role. So like as that person that you've mentioned, they're doing well in their role. Maybe they've realized that they want to go on to be an enterprise or sales manager, whatever that next step is. You out on turning your LinkedIn into a landing page. And I know some people get uncomfortable with that because they may be.
are afraid of the perception of their existing company and leadership. If it looks like they're on the market looking to go external, how do you, you know, what's the fine balance between. Siglent to the market that I'm looking and also maybe not making it too obvious that you've already kind of, you know, you're already looking to leave, or do you just go, don't care about what anybody thinks in the existing role, get that landing page, look into it.
Ashling (29:22.467)
No, I think it's a really good point that you bring up. So in one of my programs, the offer accelerator, I go through every single step to optimize your LinkedIn for in -mails. And I always at the beginning say, please, like, you know, it's not handle with care or caution as you enter, but essentially these are just generic pieces of advice to help you to maximize the number of in -mails you get and to give the best possible impression. But you...
own the relationship that you have with your LinkedIn. And if you are currently employed, you must be sensitive to the fact that that company might be looking at your LinkedIn, noticing these changes, and you don't want to ruffle feathers. And the last thing you want to do is end up, you know, having people then question if you should even be here right now, especially if that's not a conversation you're ready for. So that's one thing I always say to take into consideration, like your, your company's
policy around LinkedIn, because some companies are quite strict about that, as well as like how sensitive you think that they would be. The other thing to take into consideration, things like NDAs, a lot of AEs have signed NDAs. So again, taking those things into consideration so that you can maximize where you can. So for example, like there's these key things that every person should do to optimize their LinkedIn, but the extent to which you do it is again, dependent on your unique situation.
So like the first thing is your profile photo. That's an obvious one. There's no offense there. You can certainly update that. It's a whole psychology around how to do a really good LinkedIn profile photo. The second thing is your job title. So the job title is basically your miniature pitch. And so what I say to people is when you, if I were not connected with you on LinkedIn, Paul, and I was a recruiter or a hiring manager and you're now through,
you know, the first screening call with me as a recruiter. Of course, I'm going to, you know, type your name into LinkedIn. Now, because we're not connected, I'm only going to see what I would like to call your digital business card, which is your profile photo, your name and your job title. And so those three things have to make a really strong first impression for me to click in because we need to make the impression from the get go. There's a term in psychology called the halo effect, which is if you make a really strong good
Ashling (31:44.259)
first impression with me, I will forgive the fact that you might have some issues, maybe some things that don't fit because I'm already bought into you. So those things are very important. So when it comes to your job title, you have 220 characters. Now, most people just say strategic AE or mid -market AE, or they have, you know, let's say a term that's for their prospects that it's very hard to understand as a recruiter. I help people do this.
Okay, that's amazing for selling, but it's hard to know as a recruiter what you actually are. And so what I help people to do is with their job title. Again, we turn this into a miniature pitch with a pinch of salt considering, you know, your current employer, but we use the little lines in LinkedIn to basically demonstrate why you are so unique. What is your brand within the market?
What is your USP? And we give lots of examples of credibility. So for example, you could say, 2023 President's Club winner or award -winning account executive, or even things, Paul, as crazy as it is, like medic certified or X Salesforce, little pieces of credibility in your job title to help the recruiter and the manager see this guy, Paul, he's not just a mid -market AE, he's actually somebody.
who's a standard performer within this industry. And so those examples there, your job title, your profile photo, your LinkedIn banner, your about section, your work experience, there's a vast number of things you can do, your endorsements, your skills to optimize your LinkedIn, but taking into consideration, which I think only you as an individual know how far you can go, what is appropriate based off your employment status.
Paul M. Caffrey (33:32.366)
OK, so get the basics sorted. Any advice you'd give for people to mark on LinkedIn that they're looking for a job, or that they're not looking for a job? Does that matter these days?
Ashling (33:46.339)
Yeah, so, you know, when you go into LinkedIn, you can choose to show that you're open to recruiters and that will hide it from any recruiters internally at your own company, which is amazing. I love that feature in LinkedIn. And so it's not going to say pull, you know, open for opportunities. It's just going to have your profile photo, but recruiters will see that you're open. That said, there's still a lot of things you can do. For example, skills. Okay. So recruiter, LinkedIn recruiter now.
In the past, they used to search for candidates on things like job title. But as we've just talked about, AEs are a classic example. You could say, AE, you could say, I help people in this. You could say, I'm an enabler. It's like you're all AEs, but based off your job titles, you look like completely different. And so recruiters now rely a lot on the skills element when they're looking for candidates. So you want to be really smart when you are designing your LinkedIn profile to...
include skills, firstly, step one, but step two, that you are very intentional about the skills that you put in. You want to put in skills that are directly relevant to the jobs you're looking to get in mails about. So let's say, for example, you're doing a career change and you want to become an outbound SEOer. You want to be using skills like pipeline generation, outbound, social selling, not skills like teamwork, you know, hard worker. That's not a skill.
You want to put in tangible skills relevant to the roles that you're looking for in your about section and your work experience. The third place that recruiters also pick you up is your endorsement section. So here's another insight onto LinkedIn. So you can get endorsed. I can endorse you now, Paul, for things like closing skills, medic, whatever you ask me to.
But the fact, if I've been endorsed for those same skills, LinkedIn will give you a higher rating. So if you ask your mom, your brother, your sister, your partner to endorse you versus me, who's also a seller, those endorsements don't count as much. Whereas because I'm also endorsed and I'm also a seller, LinkedIn recognizes that. So it's these little tips and tricks to ensure that you're kind of optimizing your LinkedIn.
Paul M. Caffrey (36:02.786)
Interesting. I think a lot of people will be breathing a sigh of relief going, oh, if I take that box and available, my company won't be notified. That's great. OK. And as you as you mentioned, you're a seller. I'm going to transition into a few questions that I tend to ask everyone. And first one is what's your number one prospecting tip?
Ashling (36:26.275)
My number one prospecting tip is know who you're going after. So we spend so much time thinking about how and the what. How, what channels, what like, sorry, the how is in terms of how are we gonna contact them, what channels, what time of day will it be, how many times are we gonna reach out? And we also talk a lot about messaging, which is really important, of course. What are we gonna say? What hooks are we gonna use? Should we do video? All of those things are important.
but take one step back. The most important thing you can do as a seller is optimize your time. And so I'm a big believer in less is more at the beginning stages of a quarter or a year. If you want to be successful, it's not about doing more. It's about planning more. It's about being super strategic about who you're going to go after. If you can find the 20 % of prospects and the 20 % of existing customers that are going to result in 80 % of your revenue, well, then you've just made your life.
whole lot easier. And as a seller, I initially didn't understand this rule because when I went into sales, people were so obsessed with the number of calls you've made, the number of meetings you've had, as if they were indicators to success when it was only after trying their methods for months and months and months. And literally I used to cry in my sales job. My first sales job is to boil my eyes out because I was like, what's wrong with me? I'm doing everything they told me and it's not getting results.
Then I had a magic moment of realization that I had no strategy. And so then I switched it around. And for a little while, uncomfortable as a seller, I sat on my hands. I didn't call anyone. I didn't try and force things. Instead, I looked at my book of business, I analyzed it, and I found who were the people I needed to be speaking to, who were the people who are gonna result in my key deals. And then I applied the strategy of the how and the what, and that transformed.
my prospecting.
Paul M. Caffrey (38:27.31)
Hey, some sage advice there. Thanks so much. And what is your number one sales tip?
Ashling (38:35.011)
My number one sales tip also applies to interviewing and to getting offers, but it also applies to any goal you want in life. And that is any big goal, especially for me now starting a business, it applies to me. And it's something I remind myself on a daily basis. When I feel things are going off, it's always because I've forgotten this one piece of advice. And the advice is focus on the process. Perfect and love and adore the process. Forget the results.
Every time I start focusing on the end results of my business, how many clients do I have? What is my average this? What is my average that? I lose sight of what it's all about. I can't control those things. Sometimes they go up, sometimes they go down. I don't want to be emotionally going up and down. Otherwise, again, in sales, you've no longevity. So instead, it's like, how do I get obsessed with the things that I can control, controlled controllables and start to enjoy the process of tweaking, testing?
trying something new, enjoying the feedback and seeing the feedback as an opportunity to either, you're either, I always say to myself, you're either earning or learning. There's only those two, there's only two ways to see it. And earning stage is amazing, but you typically don't learn that much. Learning stage is difficult, but it's gonna help propel you in the longterm. So focus on the process.
Paul M. Caffrey (39:55.758)
great focus on the process. I really, really like that. And this question might be a bit difficult for you to ask because you're probably going to have so much information that you could share. But actually, what's your number one tip to get promoted?
Ashling (40:11.395)
My number one tip, it's all about visibility. Like I'm a very honest person sometimes to my detriment in these things, but like if you want to get promoted internally, it's about the politics in terms of you have to get noticed. You could be the best seller in the world, but if you're doing it in an echo chamber and nobody else is hearing about it, you will not get promoted. I had a client that...
was reaching out to me and basically this person had been a top performing AE at their company for three years. And for the last 18 months, they'd been acting as an SDR manager because they wanted to go into SDR and there had been a gap in the team. 18 months, that person was doing really hard work, mentoring the SDRs, getting amazing results. When a time came then for that role and clearly she should have got it, she didn't get it because the manager said to her, I just didn't feel like I knew you.
I just didn't feel like, you you spent enough time basically taking me out for coffee, getting to know me. And so that was such a hard lesson for her. But I say this story because even though sometimes you don't like the truth, it's important to still acknowledge it. And that is you have to meet and greet and you have to spend time with the people who are the decision makers. You have to make sure they're seeing all the work that you do. So again, there's only three steps, I would say one, excel in your existing.
existing role to get a mentor, build out a plan of the skills and the gaps you need to map out to ensure that they're no longer obstacles when the interview comes. And the third one is make sure you gain visibility for yourself, build a brand internally, get involved in projects that are outside of your remit that give you that kind of global visibility. So people start to see your name and associate you with that role. And that is the key to getting that's the key to getting promoted internally.
Paul M. Caffrey (42:07.79)
great. That's that's so important that that network of people and the people influence of the decision. It is massive because that is a sales process in itself. And I guess unfortunately, the reality is there typically isn't any bad choices when it comes to promotions. There's just better choices. So it doesn't really matter who is picked, which is a really sad state of affairs. You think about it for that person. Hopefully they've since been promoted.
As regards books, what books do you recommend salespeople read?
Ashling (42:42.019)
Well, this is again with the interview lens. This is an amazing book to read. It's called the Qualified Sales Leader by John McMahon. I actually came across this book through my own interview one time. I got offered an amazing, oh, there we go.
Paul M. Caffrey (42:57.774)
Yeah, well, we spoke earlier about this, so it's no surprise in the preparation we realised we had the same book. But I'm interested about why it's important for the for the interview process. So that's kind of cool.
Ashling (43:08.835)
One of the questions again that we talked about early on is when somebody asks you, how are you? Most people say, I'm good thanks, how are you? Okay, fantastic. That's exactly what they're expecting. Why not change it up a little bit? If you can answer the how are you question with what we call a pattern interrupt, something they're not expecting, something exciting and interesting, you're naturally gonna have a more natural two -way kind of interview. So if they say to you, oh, Aisling, thank you for coming, how are you today? You can say, I'm great.
actually just finished a really interesting book. It's called The Qualified Sales Leader. It's by a guy called John Mark Mahan. I don't know if you've heard of it. Now, we've already started off a conversation that has a wealth of relevant topics. It's about medic. It's about, you know, how to manage your pipeline. It's about sales. This guy's a legend. Everyone loves him who's in the sales community. So what's naturally going to happen is the person is then going to ask you, oh, yeah, I've actually have read that book. And so whatever list of questions they had,
whatever kind of formalities they had, they're out the window now because now we're starting a more natural reciprocity type conversation, two -way conversation. And that's how you start off on the right foot. So it's a great one for interviews.
Paul M. Caffrey (44:20.75)
Yeah, I really, really like that. And it actually reminds me of doing my junior search, which is basically a state exam here in Ireland. I remember walking into my French oral with my headphones playing because I had a great script to talk about music. If they asked me about the other stuff, my French was pretty weak. So again, directing conversations the way you want to go, taking that into your interview. I really like it. And if if we think about sales preparation and preparation in general.
Ashling (44:41.219)
Exactly.
Paul M. Caffrey (44:49.87)
What was doing the work before the work looked like in your world actually?
Ashling (44:53.859)
Okay, so I actually use the leaving cert as one of my examples too, and I love your example, because that's exactly what we talk about in interviews. So there are what, why, how, where, who questions, which we can talk about another day. There's a structure to answer those. And then there's when questions. Tell me about a time when. Can you give me an example of walk me through a time? They are not high level abstract questions. They are, I need you to give me an example. So in those,
I like to help clients with their answer bank. So basically an answer bank is where you put in seven stories you're going to tell again, like you're you're leaving sir, regardless of the question, you know, you're going to tell these stories. You've prepared these stories. You've rehearsed these stories. You know, these stories demonstrate multiple skills. They might demonstrate resilience, a challenging customer, an example of a deal that you source through outbound an example of a deal that had.
multiple stakeholders. You have all of these themes that are relevant to the story so that when those questions come up, regardless of what question, you're like, oh, ha ha, let me tell you a story and you're ready for that question. So that's a great example relevant to what you just said there of how to prepare and the work before the work.
Paul M. Caffrey (46:11.022)
Cool. Well, this is a topic that we could probably go on for another hour on because there was so much that I didn't get into, which I really wanted to. But we are there or thereabouts on time. Ashton, thanks so much for coming on. How can people find you?
Ashling (46:26.339)
Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Ashling, spelled A -S -H -L -I -N -G O 'Connor. You can also find my website, skilltribe .io. I have courses there to guide people through every step of the process from getting more of those top quality interviews to getting top quality offers. And yeah, reach out to me on LinkedIn or my website and I'll be happy to chat.
Paul M. Caffrey (46:50.062)
Great, well, Aisling, thanks so much for coming on and look, maybe we'll have to get you on another episode in the future, but thanks a lot and I'll chat to you soon.
Ashling (46:57.379)
Thank you so much, Paul.
